| Responses to : Fashion: Changing Times or an Extravagance | Forums |
 Pooja Says:18th Sep 2008 03:12:15 AM And another clearification...  Dear Johns, I refrain from responding to few points in your posts because I see no absolutely no point. Reg lingo, I did specify (in case you really do read things) that I am not blaming the so called teen lingo..but your point of adapting to people's lingo also in addition with other things in order to identify with them. The point is not teen lingo, the point is what you speak or rather choose to speak. Its all about speaking idle words which the so called teen lingo is full of, whether you agree or not ! Reg. my mind and me insulting God's creation...do not worry about that buddy I still would say, I really don't have the mind to understand your contradicting statements at different points.reg. your next post: what according to you are the boundaries within which you are playing. Can you kindly define? (But you tend to think, that if an unbeliever is wearing a certain type of clothing, then how can I wear the same if I want to show that i am different. ) I do not think what you think I think Johns, do not put argument like a kid. Life matters is what you also are saying and me too. and I am saying gospel does not wait for you to change your clothing etc. to reach out to anyone on earth. (WHERE in Scriptures have you seen THAT as a criteria for being different from the world? I would like to know that.) where did I say its a criteria and is written in the Bible? pointless question. You end up thinking people are judging you just because of disagreements in thoughts and views. Why should I judge you when I said in one of my earlier posts : (How do you know you are within the limits with whatever limits you have put for yourself. And if you are cent percent sure that you are within the limits then bingo ! great buddy...keep going ! ) I am no one to judge and I do not want to judge, that is God's department.I don't understand why you feel people want to stop you from going for a spiked hair or for a tattoo. Go ahead and do it. I am not sure whether you read posts carefully. What I wanted to say was its not needed in order to share gospel. One can do the same work without a tattoo and spiked hairs and the rest whomever you want to share the gospel with. No one needs to wait and change one's self like the other people around and then share gospel (I am not saying, you said that I am saying this to explain my point).Also, I can not set limits and shift them according to my convenience, my understanding, my desire, my interests, my choices and my definitions. Johns, I think we need to share gospel wherever we are and at all times,we have to be prepared at all times in season and out of season...with "good natured but confused youth, with druggies and freaks, with school kids and with road side beggars etc etc etc. No one is going to ask me if I identified myself with the particular kind of crowd (in clothes tattoo hairstyle tie etc) or not...but whether I made full use of the opportunity. If I am called to minister to school kids, good natured people wearing formals and tie, I can not say a no to share god's love and the gospel with a druggie ! At the same time I do not have to wait and go, change my appearance in order to identify myself with the druggie and then share gospel. (Again, I am not saying that you said that...I am saying this to explain my point.). Kindly enjoy and play and do whatever in the limits you have defined for yourself within God's limits. God bless you and your ministry ! God Bless |
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| Johns Says: 18th Sep 2008 03:15:32 AM Regarding the Holy Communion: Did you know that the wine used for the original 'Lord's Supper' was fermented wine. The Lord's Supper was during the Passover Festival and it was in that context that the Jews would partake of the 'unleavened bread' and the 'wine'. If you study Jewish history and even the usage of Wine in the OT, you will know that the wine was always fermented wine, and not 'grape juice'. But, have you noticed that we have already culturalised that? Most of our churches use 'grape juice' instead of 'fermented wine' that Jesus used. And most of us use the normal 'leavened bread loaf' and NOT the unleavened one. Moreover, when the Lord's constituted the sacrament, did you notice that it was "one" bread broken and shared by all, and in the same way, it was "one cup" blessed and shared by all? In most of our churches, we use individual cups now and people do not drink from the same cup. The same cup was important as in it showed the 'communion' and coming 'together as one'. Culturalisation? If we have already adapted to culture and deviated away from the original, then why create a hue and cry just over cocunut water now? Now, if you ask me: I would say that since Jesus institituted it with unleavened bread and wine, we must follow it as much as we can. But, it does not anywhere give emphasis on actual ingredients of the elements. The key part there is that, this sacrament is symbolic with regards to the meaning behind the elements. The broken bread represents the body of Christ that was broken at Calvary and the elements of the cup represent the blood which was shed. As far as Corinthians 11 goes, the important thing while taking these elements is to "remember" what Christ has done for us, which is why it is extremely important that we do not take the elements in an unworthy manner. Because remembering the supreme sacrifice of the Cross in an unworthy manner is insulting the Cross. The Scriptures nowhere speak about being legalistic about the elements, hence if anybody culturalises it and uses elements acceptable in their culture, then as long as the attitude and the understanding and the extreme reverence that they are actually remembering and celebrating the most supreme sacrifice that Christ did for the forgiveness of sins is evident in the act, I do not see any reason why I should scripturally condemn them. But, if it is culturally not a big issue, I think we should stick to unleavened bread and fermented wine, since Jesus used that. That's what the Scriptures have to say about that. Johns |
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| Johns Says: 18th Sep 2008 03:22:09 AM Performing Aarti: I do not know the details, and I cannot see scriptural references to show that it is allowed, hence I cannot say it is right. Which is why I kept repeating again and again and again and.... "WITHIN SCRIPTURAL PRINCIPLES". If you cannot show from the Scriptures, taken in its true context, that your practice is sanctioned, then you are already on the wrong path. I think we are again and again and again and... repeating ourselves: I did agree with you as you agreed with me and we agreed with each other, that culturalisation, contextualisation, identification, incarnation, whatever you call it... outside of Scriptural boundaries is a strict NO. But there is a LOT of culturalisation, contextualisation etc. we can do within the boundaries of the Scripture. I am speaking only about those steps. So, lets not go around in circles regarding this... But, If you want to show that any of the methods or efforts I mentioned are unscriptural, then let us discuss that. |
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| Johns Says: 18th Sep 2008 03:41:34 AM Pooja, In response to the next post: I really do not get the feeling that either of us is in here to 'discuss' the point. But to just find loopholes in the other's point, (even if it is easily understandable by putting a little thought or reading a few previous posts) and create an argument. I want to refrain from doing that. All the points I posted are in direct response to your posts. If you are having such a big problem in relating to your own posts, I can, in future, post your comments first, and then my reply to those. I avoid that because the posts become unnecessarily long. My point of discussing in the forum is ALWAYS that we learn from each other, which is why, when others bring in a point which i appreciate, i try to acknowledge it. But, if we are slowly starting to change it into a war of words, then we do not serve the purpose. Again, as I had mentioned to Geo earlier, I am a master at arguing! I can go on till Kingdom come, but then, we both have a lot of better things to do before Kingdom comes, let us both get busy doing that. I can see that you find it extremely difficult to understand my contradictory posts, hence let us give some rest to your pretty grey cells and mine, and use it for better purposes. For, I do not see any constructive use of our discussions. If you really want to argue, and play a game of tearing each other's words apart, lets do it outside of the forum. For, just as you got irritated when you logged in after a few days and saw 5 pages of pointless personal arguments, the others will find it likewise. Hence, for the sake of the greater common good, let us lay to rest our lesser private evil! Let me end with a comment from your last post:
I am glad you have understood that, since that is all I wanted all of us to understand. Thanks Johns. |
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| Pooja Says: 18th Sep 2008 03:58:22 AM Dear Johns, Don’t just acknowledge the points you like or rather the points which are in agreement with what you say. If you are here to learn from each other (as you say) kindly take some pain in doing that IF you wish to. Being a master in arguments is no great asset (as you yourself also agree to that)! It’s better if we put our energies and mind in winning the person and not the argument! Think about it. May be helpful in your ministry! If you really want to argue, and play a game of tearing each other's words apart, lets do it outside of the forum. I am not interested in what you call here a game, nor did I post anything personal on the forum. Kindly come out of your presumptions! Regarding to your last comment…I would just like to say, please do not make so much effort in order to justify yourself, your limits and your abiding by God’s limits to others. You do not need to God bless |
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| Johns Says: 18th Sep 2008 04:01:25 AM Pooja, Just one last point to make: As I said earlier, whenever you make a decision or an opinion regarding something, be sure, doubly sure that it has sure and strong foundations in the scripture. Do not form conclusions based on what Pooja thinks, or Johns thinks or Ravi Zacharias thinks, or the Pastor thinks, all of these people are but fallen human beings, marred by the fall and capable of being in the wrong. Hence, no matter what you hear and where you hear it, get back home, and do a careful study of the scriptures, asking the Holy Spirit to explain it to you. Once we all do that, then the rest is simple. Then, I do not need to worry about the Catholic Church giving coconut or performing aarti, or the pentecostal church speaking in tongues indiscriminately with interpretation, or the marthoma church teaching church traditions as God's Holy Word, or the brethren assembly claiming the the gifts have ceased to exist... I can get back to the Word of God, study what it says, and be at peace in my heart and mind about that topic. I often see a lot of us either quoting other people, or quoting scriptures without having studied it properly, which is quite sad... lets revert that trend and be serious students of the Word, those who crave for spiritual meat! Thanks and God bless. ciao, Johns |
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| Johns Says: 18th Sep 2008 04:04:06 AM correction: or the pentecostal church speaking in tongues indiscriminately WITHOUT interpretation. God bless. Johns. |
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| Pooja Says: 18th Sep 2008 04:16:01 AM (Just one last point to make: As I said earlier, whenever you make a decision or an opinion regarding something, be sure, doubly sure that it has sure and strong foundations in the scripture. Do not form conclusions based on what Pooja thinks, or Johns thinks or Ravi Zacharias thinks, or the Pastor thinks, all of these people are but fallen human beings, marred by the fall and capable of being in the wrong. Hence, no matter what you hear and where you hear it, get back home, and do a careful study of the scriptures, asking the Holy Spirit to explain it to you. Once we all do that, then the rest is simple.) Applies to you too... God Bless |
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| Johns Says: 18th Sep 2008 06:05:46 AM Dear All, I see that I have instigated enough animosity in the forum against me which clearly was not my intention. I only wanted us to learn from each other (which is why I would take a lot of pain to explain scripture, to the best of my understanding of it) and read everyone else's posts and appreciate things that they have taught me, and try my best to counter ONLY arguments and not the people behind it. But I have failed, and do not want the peace of the forum jeopardized because of me. Hence, I would like to say sorry and leave, so that the rest of the people can continue discussing in a manner that glorifies God. All those who have felt offended with my posts, my sincere apologies. peace, Johns |
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| Mary Suja Says: 18th Sep 2008 08:03:42 AM Hey ppl out there!! I read everyone's postings in the forum and thoroughly enjoyed reading... not to mention that there came a point when it got so strteched that I had to reverse read myself and see why was someone so vehemently justifying for what someone else had said 2-4 posts before. Ah!! Convictions! So strong! All I could see was that... everyone had voiced their opinions. Behind each opinion of everyone there am sure is a unheard story. Opinions, am sure being the byproduct of all that one has lived and witnessed 'when'(i.e. the age) and most necessarily WHERE! There were many times when I was nodding to what Johns was saying and on the other hand equally there were times when I was nodding to what Ps.Geo or Santosh or Pooja was saying. As it's known that history repeats itself- so then here too I could see many Peters and Pauls each one of them having enough valid reaons in their kitty to support what they believe is true. All's good. Fashion, a trivial issue as it is should never come in the way of one's faith, and most necessarily other's faith. But if one is placed in a terrain where any trial n error method or experimentation comes no where in their faith or the other's faith, Then it's that person's call. No one is entitled to judge that person or point fingers, as our Lord looks at the heart of a person and the person's intention; all the hue and cry of mere humans become redundant. On the other hand, as we are entitled as the role of ambassadors of Christ on this earth, it's apparent that people look at us and judge our moves. Remember, to us (followers of Christ) God said that-"Judge ye not, lest ye be judged" At the same time Paul writes that our speech and conduct should be such that no one can point fingers at us. It means, apparently the world observes, judges and also points fingers. So now, it's our duty that we lead a life that it leaves no one to point fingers at us for a matter as small as 'fashion'. Also it's written in the book of Life in 1 Corinthians 8: 8-9 in reference to food that - But meat commendeth us not to God: for neither, if we eat, are we the better; neither, if we eat not, are we the worse. 9But take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours become a stumblingblock to them that are weak. Food, again insignificant to the price of life, but of course more important than 'fashion' for a person to survive, got such reviews from Paul. I wonder Paul would have had a hearty laugh if we wud've proposed a question of fashion to him!! (Again, read that this statement of mine is not meant to mock anyone's opinions) BOTTOM LINE: CONSCIENCE is all that matters...coz he searches for a pure heart from above. And Johns you are not supposed to leave and go. I really like the level of energy that you've got, the writing prowess and the zeal that you showed while participating in this forum. No one wants you to leave n go(TRUST ME!) Your opinions were good food for our thoughts, and am sure so were our opinions of at least some use to you, if not mind blowing thoughts...lol I appreciate each and everyone for your opinions. I am sure no one can deny that everyone must have learnt at least something from other's very opinions that they opposed or gave justification to. About the on goings in Catholic church n all...well...I wouldn't like to discuss about it as it has nothing to do with fashion..(Again.. I know that it was written in continuation with the flow of the forum, n I wud also luv to say something about it, but I fear that on the verge of discussing that I might go astray from the topic- fashion! )Cheers to All!! |
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